Author Topic: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo  (Read 8958 times)

Skwiziks

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2013, 06:13:10 PM »
If I'm understanding it correctly, Muddle is a hodgepodge combination of all or most of the elements.

Like when you're mixing paints to create new colors, if you mix too many you almost always end up with brown.

Doomspeaker

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2013, 06:19:33 PM »
If I'm understanding it correctly, Muddle is a hodgepodge combination of all or most of the elements.

Like when you're mixing paints to create new colors, if you mix too many you almost always end up with brown.

The color brown was exactly what I was thinking about. (If there was a color for dissappointment, it would be brown).

Strike = Fury + Force & Surge = Force + Fount would make sense. Sunder = Fury+ Foundation & Subdue = Fount+Foundation seem possible as well.

Skwiziks

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2013, 06:25:12 PM »
Yeah that's the idea, the combination of the F's creates the S's.

It's unclear exactly if Muddle is only a combination of Murk and Radiant, or a "brown paint" effect.

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2013, 06:29:05 PM »
Radiant and Murky could be outside of the cycle.

Remember, Radiant apparently is the hardest material you can get, while Murky is a all dissolving substance, which makes mixing them together kind of weird.

Skwiziks

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2013, 06:33:49 PM »
Huh, "brown paint effect" might make more sense then.

Though it brings up an age old question: What happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object?

Grue

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2013, 12:08:12 AM »
Though it brings up an age old question: What happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object?

I believe it was stated somewhere that Radiant is extremely resistant to Murk, and exhibits a slight repelling force on it, so I think the murk would come to rest or get deflected away, depending on how the physics of it work out.

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2013, 04:30:05 PM »
Just some pointers from the last stream to keep the forums alive  ;)
  • Each element encompasses more than one concept.
  • Force, being used as example, stands for errosion, pushing things, wind and weather among other concepts.
  • Fury includes concepts such as fire or berserk.
  • Elements don't mesh together, so this basically rules out the theory of some elements being a combination of others
  • Apparently there is one Elemental for each element, with the Force Element being shown.


The idea of giving one element multiple effects is similar to the mana series where each element at least had 3 basic effects. Attack spell of the corresponding element, a postive effect such as a buff or healing and a negative effect such as a debuff or a negative status effect. Assigning multiple concepts seems like a nice touch as well, and it also prevents too narrow usage.

We have 9 zones and 9 elements. Will we get one Elemental per zone so that the numbers match or will these be more reseved for "special encounters"? What do you think?

Attatched is a picture of the Force Elemental.

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2013, 06:37:52 PM »
It's an interesting idea, each floor corresponding to a different elemental. I'm excited to see all the enemies when things get gonig for real. Scared of the Fury Elemental.

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2013, 06:52:28 PM »
No meshing? Noooooooooooooooooooooo~!

Still, excited that elements aren't one-dimensional.

It would be cool to see an element attributed to each floor, but that could be troubling if there ever were expansions.  It might even interfere with randomness?  Maybe?

Perhaps an element can be randomly associated with a floor, but not always, and not always the same element?

And yah, Vasae, I'm sure the Elementals will make all of us sweat.

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2013, 06:58:01 PM »
I like the idea of an elemental affinity randomized on a floor. Maybe it could boost enemies and thus add a bit of further randomization.

Quady14

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2013, 10:56:24 PM »
Huh, really interesting stuff. Definitely not quite what we had theorized it would be like, but certainly even more intriguing in how it's planned to work. I personally hope these elementals are left for special encounters rather than being bound to any one zone. If you can only find a certain element at the beginning of the game or at the end it'd take some of the variety out of the experience of interacting with every element throughout your journey at random. Rather, it'd be kind of drab if the elementals only ever appeared sequentially to fit the zones you progress through. Unless of course zones could be encountered in random order as well?

Going off of the Mana series comparison, an interesting system throughout those games (at least Secret of Mana and Seiken Densetsu 3, the two I actually played for any length of time) was using the different elementals to represent days of the week, essentially integrating the magic system into the passage of time. Maybe not the best implementation ever, as it really ends up just making elemental potencies a situational matter rather than something that can really be manipulated by players or enemies to their advantage. I know I never purposefully slept at an inn multiple times just to sway the elemental preference in my favor, but that's just me.

I wonder what else might shift the potency, occurrence or even the core effects of the elements on the player and on enemies? I could see Elemental Altars as a potential system within the game; I know Elementals have been established as an enemy type, but I'm sure not all elementally-attributed entities aren't inherently bad, so maybe elemental sprites would appear at these altars, and giving them a valuable item or amount of gold would allow you to gain unique benefits from them while possibly also aggravating that element's opposing force, making encounters with rivaling elementals more common.

It wouldn't have to be polar opposites either, just to keep things even more unexpectable. Maybe you can learn element relationships from these sprites, like that Fury elementals have a beef with Sunder elementals because one crashed the other's awesome party, so if you worship Sunder you'll suddenly be assaulted by onslaughts on falling exploding boxes rained down upon you by angry Fury elementals! ;D

Maybe you could also use altars to summon a sprite, then choose to kill it as it's distracted taking whatever offering you set down for it. By doing so, you'd get both your offering back as well as the item or buff you'd normally get fitting that element's concepts, but you'd also invoke the wrath of that element for the rest of your playthrough, making the threat of random attacks from elementals of that type much more common. Imagine doing that multiple times, so that you had 3 or 4 elementals all hot on your tail at once. A scary thought for sure.

Last thing before I'm done, going back to the idea of being granted items by elemental sprites: How about a Berserker Shield received from a Fury altar? It would make any enemy that you shield bash fly backwards with the force of a bomb explosion. Stuff like that could be really fun to play around with.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 11:02:37 PM by Quady14 »
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Doomspeaker

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2013, 05:21:31 PM »
Rather, it'd be kind of drab if the elementals only ever appeared sequentially to fit the zones you progress through. Unless of course zones could be encountered in random order as well?

You're somewhat right here, but for example, wouldn't a frozen level encourage Ice Elementals?

Maybe not the best implementation ever, as it really ends up just making elemental potencies a situational matter rather than something that can really be manipulated by players or enemies to their advantage.

What happened in reality was that the system granted too few advantages to any element and therefore even if you were lucky enough to have the element matching the day, I wouldn't matter at all. Coupled with enemies featuring elemental resistances that wouldn't allow for certain elements to be used against them anyway and therefore even disencouraging the use day matching spirits, the whole system drifted into obscurity.

I wonder what else might shift the potency, occurrence or even the core effects of the elements on the player and on enemies? I could see Elemental Altars as a potential system within the game; I know Elementals have been established as an enemy type, but I'm sure not all elementally-attributed entities aren't inherently bad, so maybe elemental sprites would appear at these altars, and giving them a valuable item or amount of gold would allow you to gain unique benefits from them while possibly also aggravating that element's opposing force, making encounters with rivaling elementals more common.

That's the idea of a God system, many roguelikes already have implemented (and I as well tend to regularly bring up). Giving elementals the role of well, personifications of certain elements is fine as you could always lable elemental opposiong you as rogue elementals.

It wouldn't have to be polar opposites either, just to keep things even more unexpectable. Maybe you can learn element relationships from these sprites, like that Fury elementals have a beef with Sunder elementals because one crashed the other's awesome party, so if you worship Sunder you'll suddenly be assaulted by onslaughts on falling exploding boxes rained down upon you by angry Fury elementals! ;D

Wouldn't this require a huge amount of knowledge of relations between elementals and won't this be a bad thing? You can basically ruin potential options very early in the game. Again as said, this would only lead to inexperienced players either only using such system at the very end, or shun them entierly in the fear of messing up.

Maybe you could also use altars to summon a sprite, then choose to kill it as it's distracted taking whatever offering you set down for it. By doing so, you'd get both your offering back as well as the item or buff you'd normally get fitting that element's concepts, but you'd also invoke the wrath of that element for the rest of your playthrough, making the threat of random attacks from elementals of that type much more common. Imagine doing that multiple times, so that you had 3 or 4 elementals all hot on your tail at once. A scary thought for sure.
Sounds like a variation of "stealing from the shopkeeper". Unless each element has some kind of patron you can anger it seems weird that elementals themselves would hunt you or let alone give their boons to you.

Last thing before I'm done, going back to the idea of being granted items by elemental sprites: How about a Berserker Shield received from a Fury altar? It would make any enemy that you shield bash fly backwards with the force of a bomb explosion. Stuff like that could be really fun to play around with.
Check the god-system mentioned above. The idea is cool, I'd even go a step further and say that a "glyph effect" could be applied to a weapon/item you are carrying. The clue? Since all weapons are made of different parts, it could replace one part with a "glyph part", thus making it predictable, but not a streight upgrade.

Quady14

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2013, 08:31:39 PM »
A frozen level would encourage ice elementals, but I don't think every zone is going to have a sole elemental theme. The Lodge for example doesn't absolutely fit any obvious element, so maybe such zones would have free elemental reign, whereas more specifically elementally-themed areas would make certain elementals more or less likely to appear. In a fire/lava zone, the Fury elemental would have more chance to appear, and perhaps be more dangerous than if he were encountered in another zone, but if a Fount or Subdue elemental were encountered in that same area it'd be severely weakened.

Good point on the whole unexpectable elemental idea. My point was really just to make it so that you wouldn't be absolutely sure which elemental be coming after you if you made a pact with a rival elemental. It could even just be expressed through a speech bubble with a picture of the potentially pissed off elemental with a skull and crossbones next to it... I dunno, it's probably not that great of an idea, but I wanted to throw it out there just as food for thought.
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Doomspeaker

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2013, 06:18:31 PM »
Ideas are a cycle of building up and tearing down....

Ryan Baker

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Re: Delver's Joojoo: Elemental Boogaloo
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2013, 05:03:47 PM »

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlVTZiRSjNf2dFNOZi1GTVd1M3NDTFhtV3c3OEZLMlE&usp=sharing

Heavily considering turning "Sunder" into "Spoil" - which is nicely opposite of Surge (life/vegetation), and relates to the poisoning of the planet, spoil swamps, etc.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 10:38:14 PM by Ryan Baker »

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