Author Topic: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?  (Read 7029 times)

Quady14

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Just had the idea to create this topic because it's one of the big things that's been on my mind regarding Delver's Drop. Co-op can be a really cool feature, and having it added to the game is awesome alongside 4-player survival and competitive modes is awesomer, but I feel like it would be positive to discuss how it could be worthwhile to invite a friend along for the drop, mostly to quell my own fear that co-op could end up being a tacked-on feature that works kind of alright but that your friend isn't jumping at the opportunity to join in on. I'd love to share playing Delver's Drop with a friend, but I don't want it to be them watching me play and occasionally dropping in for a second and doing some chip damage.

I know there are other examples of games that had a similar sort of co-op mode available, I just hope that it's implemented in a way that doesn't make the second player feel disengaged half of the time, because in most of those cases having a second player felt sort of unfair to them in one way or another. Off the top of my head, games like Sonic 3, Ico and Super Mario Galaxy, had "co-op" modes but they were slightly to seriously disadvantageous for Player 2, even if they did technically allow to people to share the experience of playing the game at the same time. (Though I doubt Super Mario Galaxy's Player 2 was excited to play as "Star Bit Reticle #2 on any occasion ever)

I guess the biggest concern is that if the second player is just a familiar rather than a second delver, they should at least be a pretty awesome familiar with enough variety and sustainability in play so that Player 2 can be just as engaged as Player 1 at most if not all times. I trust the Pixelscopic guys, what we've seen already is truly quality stuff, and I'm excited to see the game develop over the coming months, but the limitations of co-op are something that I'd like to know more about, and how it could succeed as a viable 2-player mode where others have... Not failed, but not been so much fun for the second player in.

Please, lend me your opinions!
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Lakiska

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 02:33:04 AM »
Since Player #2 will play a familiar and isn't a delver in your game his power won't rise and he won't have a skilltree. This pretty limits the experience of #2.

A way to deepen the experience of #2 would be to limit his familiar choice when he starts and by helping other players as #2 he can unlock more familiars, which he can use. Or maybe he can unlock special items, which can't be found otherwise in the game.

I think those 2 options would make it more appealing for #2.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 02:40:15 AM by Lakiska »

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 02:39:11 AM »
A smaller skill tree could help with that, as much as it may sound silly something like the Hunter Pet from WoW could work rather well. Just skills that buff it's health or damage or give it a neat little trick it can do for the second player to keep it fresh.

I'm more interested in what kind of animals they're going to give our Scoundrels, hoping for a ferret/mongoose of some sort since it's so ingrained in adventure stories ala the Beast Master.

Doomspeaker

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 03:49:35 AM »
You could go with different familiars have differtent skills and you can switch them once between each zone.
Any other additions would make it kind of a cheat mode. Not so much a fan of making it more interactive for player two.
Player No 2 is not supposed to be a fully fledged delver. You could argue that Mario Galaxy isn't a nice Co-Op game, but it rather seems it is just a single player game that has limited room for such shenanigans.

Unlocking certain stuff only in Co-Op?  No, just no. I'd rather play a well made single player with "tacked on" Co-Op" than a Co-Op game that locks me out just because I don't have a buddy that plays the game as well (look at dead space 3 or the never resident evil games).

Sorry if I  come across too harsh but this "needs more Co-Op" has done more harm than good in the past

For actual suggestions:

You could go with different familiars have differtent skills and you can switch them once between each zone.

Deltius

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 06:32:00 AM »
I guess one can look at it in different ways.  Some people would really like a strong co-op partner that's on par with his abilities and some rather this type of lesser familiar.  Something I think would works would be to have different familiar that player 2 can choose from that would benefit player 1 in different ways according to what is needed at the time and also able to possibly do certain things that the player one cannot that would greatly help get through with a level safer like being able to easily fly over holes in the floor or going through hazardous traps to open the door for player 1 to proceed.
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Dynimix

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 07:48:39 AM »
I agree, it does depend on how you look at it and how you play.  The only way I can get some people to join me in-game, is to let them be a small part of the game like in the new Rayman or Zelda.  They are able to play a major part in the game, without feeling like they are pressured to have a ton of talent.  That being said, maybe I can get my wife to join me...

Quady14

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 10:23:48 AM »
It is meant to be a primarily single-player game, so yes, any sort of co-op should be expected to be somewhat limiting to the second player, but all I ask is that if a second player does come along for the ride, that they are able to reasonably enjoy themselves without breaking the game's single-player focus. Otherwise, I feel like it's a feature that nobody's going to really use for more than one short session to check out the novelty of it. I just don't want that to happen, I'd like the second player to walk away afterwards having had an enjoyable time participating in the world and story of DD, and who would be willing go take another go at the game at some point. That's really my primary hope.
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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 01:02:54 PM »
It is meant to be a primarily single-player game, so yes, any sort of co-op should be expected to be somewhat limiting to the second player, but all I ask is that if a second player does come along for the ride, that they are able to reasonably enjoy themselves without breaking the game's single-player focus. Otherwise, I feel like it's a feature that nobody's going to really use for more than one short session to check out the novelty of it. I just don't want that to happen, I'd like the second player to walk away afterwards having had an enjoyable time participating in the world and story of DD, and who would be willing go take another go at the game at some point. That's really my primary hope.

At worst it should help people to pass time while at a friends house or make the play the battle mode. At best your buddy will buy Delver's Drop for Themselves because the found it awesome.

Deltius

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 01:42:30 PM »
I agree, it does depend on how you look at it and how you play.  The only way I can get some people to join me in-game, is to let them be a small part of the game like in the new Rayman or Zelda.  They are able to play a major part in the game, without feeling like they are pressured to have a ton of talent.  That being said, maybe I can get my wife to join me...
  Good point, I feel like this would be great for my girlfriend and I.  She just recently started getting into gaming more and enjoys when we play games together but hates being pressured usually. 
“If you want to say something and have people listen then you have to wear a mask. If you want to be honest then you have to live a lie.” -Banksy

Dynimix

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 01:46:01 PM »
I agree, it does depend on how you look at it and how you play.  The only way I can get some people to join me in-game, is to let them be a small part of the game like in the new Rayman or Zelda.  They are able to play a major part in the game, without feeling like they are pressured to have a ton of talent.  That being said, maybe I can get my wife to join me...
  Good point, I feel like this would be great for my girlfriend and I.  She just recently started getting into gaming more and enjoys when we play games together but hates being pressured usually.

Yeah, it's not for anything, but the New Super Mario Bros U really allowed my wife and brother to join me.  They like making the rainbow platforms and I am just happy to not do it all alone.

Heradite

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 08:19:22 PM »
Quote
A way to deepen the experience of #2 would be to limit his familiar choice when he starts and by helping other players as #2 he can unlock more familiars, which he can use. Or maybe he can unlock special items, which can't be found otherwise in the game.

I like this idea. A game should reward gameplay and while Delver's Drop might primarily be a single-player experience, it shouldn't lock Player 2 out of being able to have some advancement for themselves.

Is Co-op done through the internet? I'm asking because maybe anything earned for player 2 could be saved into the server so anytime they help anyone out they can continue to build their co-op familiar or something.

Quady14

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 10:23:35 PM »
Nope, it's going to be 100% local unfortunately, so we're gonna need USB controllers if we want to bring a partner along for co-op or rock 4-player battle/survival modes with our friends. Understandable given the complexity of implementing a system like that and considering Pixelscopic is just three guys. I don't blame em at all for not having an online mode, but I still wish it were an option; maybe for a future title, a couple years down the road? I'll keep my hopes up ^_^
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Heradite

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 10:39:09 PM »
Nope, it's going to be 100% local unfortunately, so we're gonna need USB controllers if we want to bring a partner along for co-op or rock 4-player battle/survival modes with our friends. Understandable given the complexity of implementing a system like that and considering Pixelscopic is just three guys. I don't blame em at all for not having an online mode, but I still wish it were an option; maybe for a future title, a couple years down the road? I'll keep my hopes up ^_^

Maybe it could be saved on the USB drive? It does suck about it being only local.

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 01:40:46 AM »
Quote
Is Co-op done through the internet? I'm asking because maybe anything earned for player 2 could be saved into the server so anytime they help anyone out they can continue to build their co-op familiar or something.

Co-Op unlocks.  ughn...
Pretty much locking out people from content if they don't play with friends.

Quady14

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Re: Delver's Co-op? How might semi-passive co-op modes work well?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 03:03:28 AM »
Co-Op unlocks.  ughn...
Pretty much locking out people from content if they don't play with friends.

Usually I'd agree about locking off that sort of content behind the multiplayer mode, (especially with local-only play) but the idea of having co-op specific unlocks, only usable by the second player to enhance their experience doesn't seem like such a badly placed mechanic to me, it helps the second player feel rewarded by the game for their efforts, and that's positive for everyone involved. The new familiars could just as easily be unlocked through single-player as well so that someone who wants them available when they're playing alone could have them, but maybe during co-op games they aren't available to player 2 until they're unlocked... Or, maybe instead of being unlocked they're simply found; and upgrade or change the nature of the second player! I'd be thinking a system somewhat a la Kirby Super Star. Imagine if player 2 started out as a smaller enemy, but slowly upgraded until they eventually became an elemental sprite or something? That may not work just because it may make the second player too overpowered though... I'm just grasping at ideas to benefit player 2 here. XD
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 04:32:00 AM by Quady14 »
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